an atheist viewpoint

thoughts from a non-theist

The Ghost That Never Lies

A couple of weeks ago I was less then polite about Thunderf00t’s ‘Ghost that Never Lies’ argument, but I now know that I was wrong – it’s a brilliant argument to use against presuppers because it generates in them the frustration we feel when talking to them.

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30 thoughts on “The Ghost That Never Lies

  1. What is the gist of the arguement Alex?

    • Basically you use the Ghost that Never Lies as the source of an equivalent revelation – it forced Nide into a frustrated shout of ‘but that’s circular!!!’

  2. This is hardly an issue at all. I answer this way:

    Congratulations, you’ve just given up your atheism to defend your atheism. Our work here is done.

    Also, as Sye pointed out, if you just assert a mere hypothetical worldview then I can do the same to counter it. It gets us nowhere. Your “ghost that never lies” doesn’t exist because my atheistic worldview says it is impossible to have such things. There, refuted. You feel better?

    • Dan, did I not once say on your blog how stupid that comment of yours is?
      Congratulations, you’ve just given up your atheism to defend your atheism. Our work here is done.

      Just because a person brings up a hypothetical scenario does not mean that one believes in it. It’s just a case of turning the person’s own reasoning against them to show how worthless it is.

      That, and the “ghost that never lies” would not be the same as your god in the first case; it’d be a false god, even if true. Even if Alex suscribed to that idea, your work would not be done.

      And it’s evidence not “worldview” that determines whether things are true or not. Evidence can lead a person to a worldview, but that’s about it.

    • Wrong. The GTNL isn’t a god, it’s a ghost.

      You seem to have spectacularly missed the point. The bringing up of the GTNL during the podcast was intended to push Nide into realising how ludicrous his own position is when a mirror is held up to it. It delivered in spades!

      • That reply was to Dan btw.

      • >> …was intended to push Nide into realising how ludicrous his own position is when a mirror is held up to it. It delivered in spades!

        My response with “atheism” was intended to push you into realising how ludicrous your own position is when a mirror is held up to it. It delivered the desired intent, even if denied. Which is to be expected, your Atheists after all. Sorry if that was too abrasive or crass. The intent is not a negative one.

      • My response with “atheism” was intended to push you into realising how ludicrous your own position is when a mirror is held up to it

        Predictably, you have failed.

        There was no mirror, no argument; there was only self-serving dogma.

  3. “Your “ghost that never lies” doesn’t exist because my atheistic worldview says it is impossible to have such things”

    wrong Dan, the only thing an athiest has to do is not believe in god or gods. The definition of the word does not even cover why someone might not believe in god or gods. So an athiest might believe in ghosts but not god or gods, in fact I have personally known a few myself that hold to just such a belief.

  4. Alex do you block posts that contain links?

  5. Hezekiah Ahaz on said:

    Whether I was “frustrated” or not doesn’t really matter.

    CHRIST was preached!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Blessings.

  6. Dan:

         “Your ‘ghost that never lies’ doesn’t exist because my atheistic worldview says it is impossible to have such things. There, refuted. You feel better?”
         Well, I’m sure that Alex will accept that as a refutation of the “ghost that never lies.” But, if you consider it an adequate refutation yourself, it also refutes “biblegod.”

  7. Yeah…leave it to Dan or to any presupper for that matter, to ignore the entire point of the argument!

  8. Ydemoc on said:

    Regarding his latest appearance on the FF podcast, Hezekiah wrote: “Whether I was “frustrated” or not doesn’t really matter. CHRIST was preached!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    And isn’t that really what presuppositionalism (and the religion it was concocted to support) is all about: “Christ was preached.” It doesn’t matter what Christ cult members say or do — how far they stray from reality, or from making sense, or from what is moral — just so long as they get their message out. Lies are okay. Dishonesty is okay. Killing women is okay. Genocide is okay. Confusion is okay. Contradictions are okay. Destroying values is okay. Anything is justified, so long as it is underwritten or done in the name of the imaginary being that they worship.

    Ydemoc

  9. Hezekiah Ahaz on said:

    Another ignorant and utterly foolish comment from “Ydemoc”

    The gauntlet is dropped.

    Who’s gonna pick it up?

  10. Ydemoc on said:

    Regarding his latest appearance on the FF podcast, Hezekiah wrote: “Whether I was “frustrated” or not doesn’t really matter. CHRIST was preached!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    In response to this, I wrote: “And isn’t that really what presuppositionalism (and the religion it was concocted to support) is all about: ‘Christ was preached.’ It doesn’t matter what Christ cult members say or do — how far they stray from reality, or from making sense, or from what is moral — just so long as they get their message out. Lies are okay. Dishonesty is okay. Killing women is okay. Genocide is okay. Confusion is okay. Contradictions are okay. Destroying values is okay. Anything is justified, so long as it is underwritten or done in the name of the imaginary being that they worship.”

    Hezekiah responded to this by writing: “Another ignorant and utterly foolish comment from ‘Ydemoc.'”

    Thanks for proving my point, Hezekiah — sans the likability you display on air — that Christians like you will go to any lengths in defense of their invisible magic being.

    Ydemoc

  11. Ydemoc on said:

    Hezekiah wrote: “Ydemoc” how do you know God is ‘imaginary’?”

    From the impossibility of the contrary.

    Ydemoc

  12. Ydemoc on said:

    Hezekiah had asked: ““Ydemoc” how do you know God is ‘imaginary’?”

    I responded: “From the impossibility of the contrary.”

    Hezekiah wrote: “I know Van Til was a genius.”

    Okay…

    Hezekiah continued: “Now, How is it that you are not imagining this?”

    Imagining what? That he was a genius? Or that I’m imagining your characteristic lack of clarity — sans your on air likability — this time in your failure to specify what it is you’re asking about?

    Ydemoc

  13. Hezekiah, you’ve got nothing more than dogma, and it’s sad to see you parroting it after it’s been shown to be invalid. If God gave you a brain, don’t you think He intended that you use it?

  14. Episode 47 was amazing. GTNL was a perfect example of when an apologist loses control of the conversation. Once they lose control of the direction of the conversation they begin to flounder and flail.

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