an atheist viewpoint

thoughts from a non-theist

God, liar or ‘withholder of the truth’?

Recently, I asked some apologists to explain why, when they claimed that lying was a moral failing, did their god seemingly have no problems with bullshitting left right and centre. I cited the following verses as evidence of his willingness to mislead

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (King James Version)

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1 Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Ezekiel 14:9

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Today I got a jaw dropping reply on the Please Convince Me blog from a new poster there….

In each of the instances you sighted, the truth was given to the people in question FIRST. In each instance, the people rejected the truth and refused to believe it. As a result, God simply removed the truth from them, giving them exactly what they wanted. In the absence of truth, what remains is a lie. So to say that God lied in these instances is similar to saying that he turned off the light. When light is gone, darkness is all that remains.

Oh, I see! It’s NOT a lie, it’s just the same as turning off a light, the light (in this instance) being ‘the truth’! God ISN’T lying, he’s just NOT TELLING THE TRUTH! Hmmm, I should have spotted that, round one to you, theist.

The 1Kings passage that you sighted is a perfect example. In that instance, God sent a prophet to the king telling him not to go into battle. If he went into battle he would fail. The king didn’t want to hear that, so he tried some prophets of other gods. These guys were false prophets to begin with, so anything they might say would already be a lie. God simply controled the lie they told. Keeping in mind that he had ALREADY OFFERED THE TRUTH, and they had rejected it.

And here, these prophets were ALREADY LIARS, so God making them lie wasn’t really making them lie at all…..or something.

Of course, the correct answer if asked ‘Can God lie?’ is ‘No, because God doesn’t exist’

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26 thoughts on “God, liar or ‘withholder of the truth’?

  1. What is this asked some apologists cr@p?You picked a random poster, who was willing to talk to you, to take on the role of defending the beliefs of 2 billion people over 3 thousand years.If you applied the same criteria to yourself, you'd have to conclude that all atheists are cowards who won't answer questions. That's obviously not true, but you make a good case for it by your actions. Whenever anyone pushes back, you run here and declare victory.

  2. Jeff, that's not actually true, is it? I've repeatedly engaged at Please Convince Me, repeatedly asked the bloggers there, a site that's USP is its intention to 'convince' atheists to believe, to answer. They've repeatedly churned out nothing but nonsense. I've never once 'declared victory', that's another outright dishonesty being repeated by you lot. I just post about what's going on from my perspective, I'm careful to link to the original text so that others can make up their own minds about the 'evidence' presented by theists, and I don't moderate the comments here, allowing a right of reply that many pro-God blogs don't. TBH I don't know what more I could possibly do to be transparent and open.

  3. The mental gymnastics some theists put themselves through is astounding.

  4. Indeed! Rather than admit that something sounds completely bonkers, they'll try and twist practically every word in the verse to make it say something other than what it clearly says.

  5. Rather than ignore the question and change the subjects like some non-theists.

  6. Tell me where I ignored a question or changed the subject.

  7. Perhaps people can check themselves and see how many times over there you actually answered a question.I take it you assert they won't find one.

  8. Well, the site is easily accessed at, I've nothing to hide at all.If I missed any questions then it's only because a lot of posts were being made during a short period when I had limited access to the web (being on holiday in Dublin at the time). IF I've missed any, please post them here, and I'll answer.As I've said, I've nothing to hide and I, unlike the theists who have made their way here it seems, am not trying to point score.

  9. I found a question or two on the linked page but I assumed they were rhetorical. If these people really were "Christian Case Makers who stand firm in their faith, ready to defend Christianity" ("About Us" section of the P.C.M website), they should expect people to ask questions not answer them.

  10. You have visitors (not people affiliated with the page) repeatedly deriding Alex for not answering questions or backing up statements, and you thought they must be rhetorical?And he didn't even notice them.And you are the smart ones?

  11. Trent posted a whole load of self-regarding bollocks, perhaps I missed a couple of his biting queries when skimming his replies?Post them here and I'll answer, Mr No Name.

  12. I just did quick search for question marks."It is almost like you are mocking us for not being gullible enough to mock even more?"That's not a question."Could God create another God? … I believe these things are true, but I have no easy answers to these questions." Rhetoric.

  13. I just did the same as JC, and answered anything that it looked like I'd missed.But, really, the questions asked by the 'experts' were so witless it wasn't particularly interesting.

  14. You guys are so full of it.

  15. "You guys are so full of it."Well, you were asked to cut and paste questions you thought were being ignored. Anonymous, are you from P.C.M?

  16. No just someone who came across this blog, saw the bragging, and decided to see if it was justified.

  17. Bragging? What bragging? Where is there a single instance of 'bragging'??I'm starting to recognise some standard theist tactics….

  18. Golly Gee Whiz, I guess I've been told. LOL

  19. That doesn't look like you providing evidence of my supposed 'bragging'….

  20. I suppose if you rebrand the brag as fact, then you don't look so bad. As long as people don't start crossreferencing.

  21. People can cross reference, though I doubt they'll bother. If they do, I've nothing to hide.

  22. Hey anonymous, you could help out by providing links to all these unanswered questions and all this bragging you've been complaining about…

  23. If you can't see it, pointing it out wouldn't help.

  24. Nice side step, Anonymous! You get to maintain your 'holier than thou' attitude without providing any evidence at all! SCORE!

  25. Look who talks about evidence! You are full of accusations & lies & bravado yourself. 2 faced.

  26. In what way have I been '2 faced', Hazmat?

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